HR Stories Podcast - where the Lesson is in the Story

Sexual Harassment and Beth the Lifeguard - Faragher vs The City of Boca Raton

April 15, 2021 John Thalheimer and Chuck Simikian, SHRM-SCP Season 2 Episode 1
HR Stories Podcast - where the Lesson is in the Story
Sexual Harassment and Beth the Lifeguard - Faragher vs The City of Boca Raton
Show Notes Transcript

Beth Faragher was a 19 year old college student Lifeguard for the City of Boca Raton in Florida. But after years of constant sexual harassment by her male supervisors, she quit, filed a lawsuit, got heard by the US Supreme Court, and changed everything for companies across the United States. 

Companies and organization today conduct sexual harassment training and education based on two court cases that came out of the summer of 1998. In this first episode of Season 2, we dive deep into the landmark case - Faragher vs The City of Boca Raton. Studied by law students and certified HR professionals alike, this case determined that an employer is liable for the actions of its supervisors. Listen and hear about Beth Faragher's story in details unlike any other examination of this case.

Don't make the same mistake this company did. This episode of HR Stories Podcast is sponsored by www.GetHRHelpNow.com. They can provide consultation, coaching, and training for you and your team....virtually or live in-person.

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Chuck Simikian:

Sexual harassment, and a beach lifeguard named Beth, who went to the Supreme Court and changed everything. Season Two of the HR stories podcast begins now.

John Thalheimer:

Welcome to the HR stories podcast where there is a lesson in every story. If we listen well, stories help us learn and teach us ways to act. Each year, john tall heimer and Chuck Simikian deliver 1000s of seminars around the country to business owners, executives and HR professionals discussing the fundamentals of human resources, best legal practices and risk reduction activities for organizations. This podcast allows us to dig deep into the human resource experience, and see where businesses go wrong. Each episode we share a different story where a company missed the mark, and then will provide recommendation based on our years of working in the Human Resources field. Sit back, listen, learn and act. Welcome to the HR stories Podcast, where there is a lesson in every story. And now our host, john tall heimer. And Chuck Simikian.

Chuck Simikian:

Hey, this is Chuck, this

John Thalheimer:

is john, welcome to season two. We're really excited to be back this season, we've decided to dedicate it to the stories that changed HR, we're going to look back on legacy cases that change the way we interpret the laws. This week, we'll be talking about sexual discrimination in the workplace.

Chuck Simikian:

Absolutely. And this is a big one this week, john, you know, as we both consult and teach HR and employment law, I'm sure you're familiar with the concept that an employer may be liable for supervisory employees who sexual harassment of subordinates results in a hostile work environment amounting to job discrimination, correct?

John Thalheimer:

nhnohAbsolutely. Yeah. It's one of those things we discuss in our of our training, right, we want to make sure the employer knows that they are responsible for how their supervisor behaves.

Chuck Simikian:

Sure. And it makes sense. And it feels like that concept is indisputable. And it is, but it wasn't always that way.

John Thalheimer:

Well, tell me more about that.

Chuck Simikian:

Yeah. So as we both know, sex harassment is a big deal when it comes to employment law. But it wasn't always like that. Sure, it was illegal. And companies had some policies. But it wasn't until the late 1990s that the US Supreme Court got involved, set some things straight, and basically changed the ways companies view everything from training, to investigations, and discipline.

John Thalheimer:

Chuck, I think this might be a good time to pause just before we get into the case, because I'm really want to get into the case. But I want people to understand how laws are created and then interpreted, right. And so what happens is your federal our federal government, or the state government will create a law. But then it's their interpretation is really left up to the courts. And so a lot of times laws go on to the onto the onto the registration, and they're set up and then all sudden, we're not sure how to interpret them. And so in this case, there were laws there, but we weren't sure how best to interpret them. And so then the Supreme Court got involved and said, Okay, this is how we're going to interpret them.

Chuck Simikian:

So let's go back to 1985. And Beth faragher is a 19 year old college student at Florida Atlantic University. She begins working part time during summers as a lifeguard for the city of Boca Raton parks and recreation in order just to put herself through college, see Beth loved recreational sports. And even though there were only a handful of female lifeguards, this job was perfect because she got to be outdoors. In fact, in Beth's own words, she says at first ocean lifeguarding seemed like a dream job. You know, the pay was great. At approximately one and a half times the current minimum wage. The hours were great. We were paid for an eight hour day that included a one hour morning workout and a one hour lunch break. She said the environment was great. I was working at the beach in beautiful sunny South Florida. Who could ask for more.

John Thalheimer:

That definitely does sound like the dream job.

Chuck Simikian:

Yeah, it was you know, there were lifeguards that worked out of the this beach office, with their supervisors and now all of whom were male, a bill Terry david silverman and Robert Gordon, and the routine was structured with a clear chain of command. You see the lifeguards reported to lieutenants and captains and they All reported up to Bill Terry and Terry was in his mid 40s. He was the chief of the marine safety division. And he had the authority to hire lifeguards to supervise all aspects of the lifeguards work assignments, to engage in counseling to deliver reprimands, oral verbal reprimands, and to make a record of any such discipline. Now Silverman and gore Gordon, were also responsible for making the lifeguard daily assignments and for supervising the work and fitness training. But they all reported up to Bill Terry, and then we'll go ahead I'm sorry,

John Thalheimer:

I know it sounds like it's very militaristic, if I can use that word, where there was very strict structure on who reported to whom.

Chuck Simikian:

Yeah, exactly. And now the lifeguards really had no significant contact with higher city officials. Terry Silverman, and Gordon, were it.

John Thalheimer:

Okay, so that was their boss. Those are the people they went to, if there was an issue, those were the people they knew, right. They didn't know anybody in City Hall is what you're saying. You are correct.

Chuck Simikian:

And, and Beth faragher. She worked for the Department for a total of five years, until June 1990.

John Thalheimer:

was now Good job.

Chuck Simikian:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, she absolutely loved it. And but here's where it gets interesting. April 1992 months before she resigned. She had a co worker, the co workers name and if I get this correct was Nancy. He went shoe. And she was actually a former lifeguard how she wrote to the city's personnel director, complaining that Terry and silvermine had harassed her and other female lifeguards. Okay. Nancy's had sent a complaint to the city of personnel director, who is in today's term the Human Resources force and oversees the staffing. Exactly. And and as I read into this, actually, Nancy had worked for a number of years with Beth Nancy actually left her job, took another job at another lifeguard facility along the beach. And she waited. Here's the interesting thing is she was so afraid of, of the lifeguard management there that she waited in her new job. She waited until she hit her 90 days probationary period, before she actually sent that letter, because she was afraid that Terri Silverman and Gordon would actually derail her new job.

John Thalheimer:

Wow. So what does that say? Right. I mean, that says a lot about how Nancy felt the environment was like it would still that pressure of those individuals still had that she had gone. Right. She had moved on to another place. She was still afraid of them.

Chuck Simikian:

Exactly. So so the investigation goes on. Right. And so the following the investigation, the city actually found that Terry and Silverman had behaved improperly. They reprimanded them required them to choose, though, between a suspension without pay, or they could forfeit some annual leave. And they actually took the docking of the vacation pay, but both kept their jobs.

John Thalheimer:

So you might not know the answer to this and that's okay. But were Was it a full time job in Florida, as Terry and Silverman? Did they have full time jobs?

Chuck Simikian:

As far as everything that I've researched? Yes. Okay. These were full time, year round jobs working for the city of parks and recreation.

John Thalheimer:

Well, it makes sense in Florida, you could do that. Okay, great. Yeah.

Chuck Simikian:

So unsatisfied with this outcome. faragher Beth faragher. And you and Chu, Nancy, you and Chu filed a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission EEOC in the winter of 1990. And after a two year process, the EEOC then gave them the right to sue.

John Thalheimer:

So can I ask you a question here? Because I just try to make sure this is clarified for our listeners and also for me. So their original complaint was just from Nancy attitude. Yes. Okay. And so and then, following that investigation, the city said, Okay, if Terry and Silverman we're just going to take your annual leave away. We've decided that's what we're going to do. And then Farrago came and said, Okay, now I want to combined my complaint with Nancy. So Beth and Nancy den, combine their complaints and went to the EEOC.

Chuck Simikian:

Sure. So what exactly so I don't have the exact details of this. But I, I imagine, Nancy, you and she went to Beth faragher and said, Look, do you believe this? And they were incensed. They were uncensored. Like, really these guys get to keep their job, and they just lose some vacation pay. And they they went to the EEOC. They filed this. And you know, two years passed, and they got that right to sue, so faragher took it forward. Beth faragher took it forward, and she herself brought an action against Terry Silverman and the city in 1992, asserting claims under Title seven and Florida law. The complaintant, or the complaint alleged the terian silvermine created a sexually hostile atmosphere at the beach by repeatedly subjecting Beth faragher and other female lifeguards to uninvited and offensive touching by making lewd remarks by speaking of women in offensive terms. The complaint continued specific allegations that Terry once said he would never promote and terrorist the top person here correct. So Terry says I will never promote a woman to the rank of lieutenant. And that Silverman had said to faragher date me our clean toilets for a year. And I gotta tell you, john, because of the brevity of our broadcast today, there are all kinds of comments made. And those were two of the biggest ones.

John Thalheimer:

And so those comments, right, and so I'm just trying to understand. So those comments, obviously, Beth and Nancy heard those comments. And then they wrote them down as part of their official complaint, right? They they're the ones that said, hey, these people said this.

Chuck Simikian:

Absolutely. And you can you can read it in the official court documents and records. But that's so so let's look at the timeline. 1990. The original letter gets written to the city, winter of 1990. They filed the official EEOC complaint. It's two years later in 1992. That they that they move forward with that, that Beth moves forward with a lawsuit. But it's not until June 1994, following a trial, the United States Southern District of Florida in Miami, ruled in her favor, ordered the two supervisors to pay Beth faragher $10,500 in damages under the state law, and also under federal law, she one get this a whopping $1 from the city. Right?

John Thalheimer:

Yeah. And sometimes it's not about the money value, right. I mean, I think a lot of times we think all we see these big things, but it's that recognition that you have messed up, right. It's that recognition that you did something wrong. And that $1 I hope that still has it. I hope she has it on her wall somewhere saying, Hey, we did this, we fought this, we made them know that they were wrong.

Chuck Simikian:

Well, there is a there is an interesting PostScript to that. $1. So folks, you got to stick around to the end for that one. It's funny, you brought that up, john. So can I

John Thalheimer:

before we go on, because I just want to make sure that because this is the discussion you and I are having before we started today. So it's really important that people know that bath filed complaint within the $180.80 days or the 300 days in Florida to the EEOC, right, because that's part of it if the employee waits too long. And that does that it's no longer a viable lawsuit. They can't go to the EEOC.

Chuck Simikian:

Exactly, exactly. And the other thing we talked about was, but what if a company has a policy and you see, the city of Boca written, had adopted an anti harassment policy in 1986. But that wasn't enough, because it also had a duty to enforce that policy and city officials had failed to both disseminate the policy and inform employees of the complaint procedure, much less track the supervisors behavior, and that's what came out in this first trial.

John Thalheimer:

Yeah, and I want the one thing that amazes me when you go back and read this trial, is that that sexual harassment anti harassment policy, never got down to the lifeguards that you have a policy and you never reach it to a set of employees? Well, of course, you're gonna get in trouble, right? I mean, I think that's like, to me, that's the employers need to take that away. We all need to go. Is this being disseminated to everyone on our team? Do they all have access? Do they all know that and so it really frustrates me when I read that I was like, what, how can you not like that would be hr 101. what exactly happens right? And so we don't know, right? We don't know from the documents we can read. Get it in there. Did Terry get it and not disseminate it to his team? Maybe. But that's not necessary. Still somebody above him needs go, Hey, where's the signatures? Did they sign this? Where's the training going on? Sorry, sorry. I get just a certain sense when I know exactly,

Chuck Simikian:

exactly. And so now you might think this is where it ends. But the case got appealed. Two years later, in 1996, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the original District Court decision that the city was liable and fairgoers dollar victory in particular. And including the order to the city of Boca Raton to pay her attorneys fees. And court costs God over termed.

John Thalheimer:

And so just let's be clear, so when the case was appealed, it was appealed by the city of Boca ratone.

Chuck Simikian:

Exactly,

John Thalheimer:

exactly. So they said, You know what, we don't believe in this. We don't want to have to pay for the dollar plus the court costs and the fees, which was probably still hardly anything comparatively, what we see out there. And so they said, Okay, we're going to appeal this. We

Chuck Simikian:

don't think it was right. Exactly. So, you know, it's interesting faragher, Beth faragher said interview years later, she said, Look, money was not the issue. And in fact, and I will tell you, john, money couldn't be the issue, because harassment occurred that occurred before. Before the, you know, the 1964 Civil Rights Act was amended in 1991. And that's when they started allowing for punitive damages. But she said, Look, money was never the issue. The main reason we filed the lawsuit was to be sure that those two guys couldn't do it to more women. You see, there were three supervisors, by the way, and one supervisor really didn't harass them as much. So that's why they primarily fought against these two guys. But she's saying it happened to every female lifeguard there, they almost all came and testified for us.

John Thalheimer:

Wow. Right? That's sort of looking ahead or looking back and go, what can we do to protect the people are they're gonna have this job after us, right? What can we do? And sometimes you got to take that stand. And I'm glad Beth, and the people did that. Right. They took the stand for everybody. And I'm glad everyone came in and testified about it.

Chuck Simikian:

Yeah. So you know, this is a famous case, for those of us that are in HR that are studying for our certifications. And what a lot of people don't know by now. Beth faragher, had not only didn't only not only have a thorough understanding of the law, because here's the interesting side of the story. She actually after she went through her got her bachelor's degree, she decided to enroll in law school at Case Western Reserve in Cleveland, and eventually graduated in 1993, and moved to Colorado. And now years later, November of 1997. She gets a call from the US Supreme Court, that her case is now going to be reviewed by them. Yeah, and I could just imagine getting that call yours later. Remember, this started in 1991 to 1992 1994, overturned in 1996. And then 1997, she gets this phone call.

John Thalheimer:

You're you would assume that her lawyer, her teams of lawyers was pursuing this. And they appealed the 11th Court district ruling and said, like, we want to take this to the Supreme Court. But as we all know, not every single case gets up to the Supreme Court. Right. And so yeah, sometimes it doesn't happen. So this was one of the ones the Supreme Court looked at and said, we think there's something there. We think there's something there to help us better define this law.

Chuck Simikian:

Yeah, exactly. In fact, that summer of 1998, the Supreme Court looked at two cases. This is one of them. The other one we're going to talk about in Episode Two, coming up, folks, but on June 26 1998, the US Supreme Court reinstated the damages. Beth faragher was initially award awarded, and get this they ruled seven to two, that under Title seven of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. An employer may be liable for supervisory employees whose sexual harassment of subordinates results in a hostile work environment amounting to job description. However, the court also held that an employer could make an affirmative defense in certain situations.

John Thalheimer:

So let's go back because I think you said a hostile work environment amounting to job discrimination correct. That's what you that's what Yes, okay. So they went back. Okay, so seven two is unusual, right? unusual and our supreme court. And so they held that the employer, the employers, in this case, the city of Boca, Boca Boca to return can be high liable for what their supervisors did to create a sexual harassment

Chuck Simikian:

or hostile work environment. Okay? Absolutely See, um, and it basically since you Beth, here's the deal, Beth got her job, she worked for five years, and then she left on her own. And since there was no tangible or adverse job related actions, like Beth was never terminated, she never missed a promotion. She didn't get a raise the courts, the Supreme Court still basically said, sexual harassment is illegal, and an employer can be held liable for the actions of its employees. Chuck, this

John Thalheimer:

has been interesting. Let's take a quick break. And we'll be back in a minute. Alliance HR partners, we are stronger together. Alliance HR partners provides Human Resources consulting for growing businesses from audits to policy development, leadership and compliance training and risk reduction strategies. Each week, we hear stories from our new clients about the challenges of managing human resources. And the theme is always the same. They wish they had hired an HR support partner sooner. And Alliance HR partners. We are stronger to get more information go to get HR help now.com. So if I'm right, and I remember going back and reading these court cases, the 11th Court never said that there wasn't a hostile work environment. Right. They never said there wasn't a hostile work environment. what they said was the city wasn't responsible for that hostile work environment. Is that correct? You are correct. Right. Okay. You are correct. Okay. Yeah, I'm

Chuck Simikian:

shaking my head, folks. You can't see shake, man. And that's where the Supreme Court went back and said, Look, even though there was no adverse or tangible job related action, still. You know, the deal is that they said, and it's our opinion as the Supreme Court, they said that employers may raise and and there is a defense to this, john, for employers. Right. So you are correct. They were Supreme Court reverse that that appeals. And but they said, you know, what, look, there is a defense to this. And employers can raise what they call an affirmative defense. And these affirmative defenses have have two elements. Number one, employers must have exercise reasonable care, to prevent and properly correct any sexually harassing behaviors.

John Thalheimer:

Okay, so let's get into that. Because I've read that I've read that hundreds times. Right. And I go back, I'm like, What the heck does that mean? What does exercise reasonably care to prevent? So is that sexual harassment training? Is that anti harassment policy? How much do I need to do to be on the right side of the law?

Chuck Simikian:

Everything? I it's everything what you just said it's, it's having a policy, communicating that policy. But it's the training. Yeah. So reasonable character prevent, and properly correct. So it's, it's training, and it's training your all of your employees, all of your hourly employees, all of your management employees, training everyone, as far as what is sexual harassment, training managers of what their responsibilities are? And I would do it every year. In fact, some states now mandate it.

John Thalheimer:

Yes, I was just gonna say that. So we know in some states, New Jersey, New York, California, they all mandate sexual harassment training. A lot of states don't. But a lot of states, what they have in their law says we strongly urge employers to do training, right? And I think when I teach people when I'm consulting with people, when I say that, what that means is, if you do it, that's going to give you that affirmative fence, right, that's going to protect you were cases on here. And I think one of the things that you address but I want to cut back to is that, in this case, with bath, there was no tangible employment action, right? Nothing happened to her. She wasn't fired. She wasn't demoted, she never had to clean the bathrooms. But there was still a hostile work environment. And so when we think about the affirmative defense, if there is a tangible evidence, promoted, demoted, fired Given hard assignments, that would not normally be their work, doesn't matter what you do, right. In that case, the employer is going to be responsible. But in this case, there was no tangible action. And so, but there was failure. In this case there, wasn't they, the lifeguards never saw the anti harassment policy. And then the city of Boca, Boca Raton did not really oversee these people like then no one went down and said, Hey, how are these bosses doing what's going on? And so those are the issues as well. Okay, so I got it now. I'm feeling good. Yeah, probably correct. Any sexual harassment ever. So if something does happen, somebody does complain, you boom, you're immediately on it, right? And so we're always telling everybody in our classes, sexual harassment complaint needs to go to the top of the line, you can't be like, oh, I'll get to that next month. You need to address it right? Or you need to drop everything else you're doing it address it right away.

Chuck Simikian:

Absolutely. And a document that efforts we'll see, you've actually touched on number two, what the Supreme Court considered affirmative defense and number two is victimize employees. And and by the way, the current HR speak on that you're not a victimized employee, you're a target your target of harassment, but they use the term victimize employees unreasonably. Another defense basically if the victimized employee failed to take advantage of any preventative, or corrective opportunities provided by the employer. But keep in mind, the court added that these affirmative defenses as you said john, are unavailable when the harassment ends and tangible adverse job related actions, including demotions and discharges.

John Thalheimer:

So what they're saying there is that the employer needs the employee needs to go to somebody in the organization and say, Hey, this is happening to me. That How am I tripping? That is? Exactly,

Chuck Simikian:

and the city of Boca Raton. never laid that out. Yeah. To to Beth and her, her co workers.

John Thalheimer:

And as I remember, when I read the sexual harassment policy that boek City, Boca Raton had, right, the one they had lifeguards didn't see it, but they did have one. It said if there is an issue to go direct to your supervisor, so they didn't give them an avenue to go to if it was your supervisor, right. And so when we're building our sexual harassment policies, it's really important that not only we tell them to go to their supervisor, if it's somebody else, but it is their supervisor or somebody in their chain of command. They should either go to HR, or if we don't have an HR person, there should be somebody on the executive team that handles these things, and they should go to that person.

Chuck Simikian:

Exactly. You know, and I gotta tell you, a lot of times, people ask, Why did she never report the harassment? It goes in line with what you just brought up. And I have her own words here. If I could read them to you. Absolutely. She never did that. So she says there were several reasons. When when she reported some of the behavior to a lifeguard captain. He actually discouraged reporting the incidents to City Hall. And in fact, he cautioned against it. The supervisors to whom she reported were the ones harassing her. She said she feared losing her job and Bill Terry, the top dog there, she said was a god on the beach patrol, and those who crossed him suffered retaliation such as bad schedules, poor tower assignments, or termination. And get this john in regards to what you said Beth Berger also said she was unaware of any sexual harassment policy or reporting mechanism during the time she worked for the city. Remember, she started in 1985. In 1986, the city of Boca Raton issued a sexual harassment policy, but she says she never saw the policy was never posted anywhere in the Marine safety headquarters. She said but what hung in the locker room at the headquarters was a poster of a semi nude woman clothes only in a sheer nagla J. In fact, she wants she stated once this showed her how the harassers felt about women and strongly indicated that reporting any harassment would be unwise. And then finally, she says, as a woman in a very male oriented profession, she believed that she just basically had to put up with it. And yeah, she didn't want to be labeled as a sissy. She said,

John Thalheimer:

yeah. And one of the things I want everyone to kind of think about is when we do have a male dominant In a female dominated, right when we have a gender dominated industry, and we are bringing other the other gender in, in this case, we know there's going to be friction in there. And we got to know that's going to happen, right? We have to be aware of that. And it doesn't just have to be gender, right? Because it could be other types of discrimination as well. And as HR professionals, we got to be thinking, Okay, what could happen? What can we do to protect these individuals, and that sometimes that means getting down there being down there more often than we normally would. And just making sure that we are fighting for those individuals and making sure they're aware that they can come to us, if things are not being done, the way they are going to be done. And we see it right, we see these male dominated cultures. And sometimes when we have a female moving into that there's definitely that friction. But we got to change that mindset. We have to change that mindset in businesses.

Chuck Simikian:

So the PostScript of of this whole situation is that Beth once said, but Farrago once said that if these two supervisors had not worked for the city of Boca return, and she might still be lifeguarding, today, she said it was an ideal job. She worked six hours paid for eight the pay was great. The lifeguards were wonderful people, except for those two supervisors. Just some of our closest friends today are still the lifeguards she met while working for Boca Raton. And I will tell you, ladies and gentlemen, Beth faragher is still very much alive today. Still very active, and she is a judge in Colorado. So she is active in the legal community. And I think that's kind of a cool, a cool story,

John Thalheimer:

kind of story and how how things shape your lives as you go through them. And I want to go back here to a little bit about this hostile work environment. Because I think right well, there's things in the news right now with Cuomo and all that stuff going Governor Cuomo going on, that we have to really get into the other person's eyes and see it from their perspective, why would that a reasonable person feel that this is harassment? And a lot of times we may not see that from ourselves, we got to go put ourselves we got to have that empathy going, where are they feeling? What are they what's going on in their life that they feel maybe it's not the best thing that's going on? And what it says that

Chuck Simikian:

exactly? Now, I will tell you, the decision and faragher versus the city, Booker time, wasn't the only sex harassment case. The Supreme Court decided in June of 1998. Like I alluded earlier, in its ruling, there is another case called Burlington industries, versus ellers. And it determined that harassment did not have to result in tangible harm in order to be actionable, but that john is a nother story.

John Thalheimer:

Oh, fantastic. So we are my understanding is that is sees that that is all for season two, that's going to be the second episode, right? We're gonna get into the LRF story.

Chuck Simikian:

Absolutely. Oh, and I do have a little post PostScript. Clarence Thomas, was was the judge in both cases. And here's an interesting fact. And if those of us that remember, when clarence thomas went through his nomination, there was a big sexual harassment situation with him. And here's the interesting fact, of the two people that dissented on both of those cases, by the way, Clarence Thomas offered dissent in both decisions. Interesting. Yeah. Alright,

John Thalheimer:

so let's go back here. I'm an employer. What should I be doing? What should I be doing? I mean, employer what I mean, I think we covered but let's just recap and go. Okay, here's the things we want you to take away from that.

Chuck Simikian:

Yeah. Number one, have a policy. Number two, communicate that policy. Number three, do the training on the policy, you see all of that shows good faith effort. But good faith effort isn't enough. You need to have those things in place. You need to document them. And you need to quickly investigate and document any any claims of harassment, sexual harassment, because that good faith effort needs to be to have a good faith defense, you needed to have all of those things in place.

John Thalheimer:

That's great. Yeah. Now one thing that I would add to that as a final thoughts, is we have to be aware of what's going on in all of our organization, right. And so a lot of times, we have these diverse departments, and because they're so I worked in the theater, I worked for a big hotel chain and I worked in the theater and we Pretty much isolated. I was the only one I was the production manager, I was the only one really with contact with the hotel staff. My staff wasn't. And I will say that there were probably things that I didn't pass on as a young manager that I should have. And so you got to make sure that they're Incorporated. They feel part of that. And they're getting the information that they need to be successful in your workplace. And so sometimes there are those people that have that strong personalities that seem to have everything going from the outside, but we got to go in and investigate and see what's going on do surveys, do and stay interviews, what's going on, make sure that everyone is comfortable.

Chuck Simikian:

Absolutely. All right, john, and ladies and gentlemen, if you want to read more this story and Beth fairgoers own words, look in the show notes, and thanks for listening.

John Thalheimer:

Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to HR stories podcast. The material presented in this podcast is for informational purposes only. Chuck and john always recommend using the employment lawyer to handle any legal HR issues. We do our best to double check sources and make sure the information we're providing is accurate. We may eliminate or embellish without changing the basic narrative to make the story easier to understand, and certain circumstances may change in identifying information to protect the innocent. If you have any questions please reach out. Reach out to us at help at HR stories podcast calm. Thank you for listening to the HR stories podcast where there is a lesson every story